tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post7693816512876017878..comments2023-10-24T09:06:30.200-04:00Comments on No More Mister Nice Blog: Steve M.http://www.blogger.com/profile/11963290427258439242noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-67058334830885840742013-11-27T17:58:24.345-05:002013-11-27T17:58:24.345-05:00And for a thousand years oaths have been sworn to ...And for a thousand years oaths have been sworn to expose The Church for what it is: a money grubbing whore. I haven't the time nor the keyboard for history lesson here, so will leave it at since the corruption of the templar The Church has been the single most effective catalyst for unfettered capitalism.<br /><br />And then there's that whole butt-fucking little boys thing. Papal proclamations are naught but lipstick on a pig.<br /><br />No fear.Ten Bearshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594307610015584119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-71532864513052963872013-11-27T13:30:10.458-05:002013-11-27T13:30:10.458-05:00Pope John and Vatican 2 were genuinely radical, in...Pope John and Vatican 2 were genuinely radical, in the best sense of unwrapping dogma to find a true Catholicism. <br /><br />John Paul betrayed his name sake by pushing the church back to the right. Yes, he and Benedict said all the right things about poverty, but when it came to those who were actually working among the poor, both Popes were total hypocrites. <br /><br />Note in particular John Paul's campaign against liberation theology at a time when America, under Reagan, was bringing the cold war to South America, where any concern with poor folks could be undermined as a strain of communism, i.e., see promoting civil war in Nicaragua, and arranging for the people of El Salvador to democratically elect a government of death squads. What did the Vatican have to say about Allende or Pinochet, or Chile or Argentina? Precious little.<br /><br />That having been said, I'll admit finding this Pope, Pope Francis, fascinating, and his recent encyclical stunning, though I'm as skeptical about real world application of a genuine critique of present-day capitalism as Steve, (unless it comes from Catholic nuns on a bus,) but I have to admit that I was impressed by the fact the Francis actually criticized trickle-down economics by name, noting that based on experience there is no reason to think that it works.Leahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18077032410839810776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-16794650474816186422013-11-27T12:26:41.168-05:002013-11-27T12:26:41.168-05:00"what Francis is saying just seems like more ..."what Francis is saying just seems like more of the same, and I don't expect it to make a damn bit of difference."<br /><br />You're probably right, but a guy can dream. Certainly Francis comes with the intellectual rigor of the Jesuits and a lot less theocratic baggage than JPII or Benedict. But as someone else in the comments said, one guy isn't going to reform an institution as old and conservative as the HMC. Knight of Nothinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00258071389769083850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-62826133962656095862013-11-27T10:48:07.947-05:002013-11-27T10:48:07.947-05:00Yes, this isn't much different from what previ...Yes, this isn't much different from what previous Popes have had to say on the matter. Tony is engaging in wishful thinking on the matter, to say the very least.Dark Avengerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02220642215040873632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-48902134715709931292013-11-27T08:24:16.561-05:002013-11-27T08:24:16.561-05:00The church has always talked a good line about hel...The church has always talked a good line about helping the poor, but the church's history has always been to dole out some crumbs while amassing great wealth at the top. Say, sounds a lot like capitalism! It galled me as a catholic that the church continually begged for money from its flock The poor, the uneducated, the unsophisticated were so willing to donate their widow's mite for a promise of heaven. I knew of a few instances where not-well-off but devout families were denied assistance from catholic "social services" and told to go to the public sector. Rugosahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04348056243298249939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-37154604921634385962013-11-27T04:06:20.206-05:002013-11-27T04:06:20.206-05:00Just so. Just so. Philo Vaihingerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17150326435392881297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-9836216775238906632013-11-26T21:10:25.584-05:002013-11-26T21:10:25.584-05:00The issue is that it's in an encyclical (spell...The issue is that it's in an encyclical (spelling for sure). That makes it more official doctrine rather than mentioning it in other ways.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-10706903958076272842013-11-26T19:45:57.660-05:002013-11-26T19:45:57.660-05:00Maybe the big difference this time is people think...Maybe the big difference this time is people think he believes it. Also, maybe more people want to hear it.Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10606015280649975244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-41767854042940737392013-11-26T19:45:40.239-05:002013-11-26T19:45:40.239-05:00Maybe the big difference this time is people think...Maybe the big difference this time is people think he believes it. Also, maybe more people want to hear it.Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10606015280649975244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-69301128138436760662013-11-26T19:04:13.445-05:002013-11-26T19:04:13.445-05:00For 1600 years the Catholic Church has been a reac...For 1600 years the Catholic Church has been a reactionary organization. Why anyone thinks its 1600 year history is going to be reveresed by one man is beyond me but allow me to make a bold prediction: it won't be.<br />The day he dies the Church will still be what it is today. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14306237648722664506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-16525785516276853512013-11-26T18:32:52.015-05:002013-11-26T18:32:52.015-05:00I suppose you could make a similar argument about ...I suppose you could make a similar argument about Obama and past presidents talking about the importance of education, job creation, etc. The bigger problem with the pope is that he has limited influence. I would argue that the Republican party had more influence over Catholic priests in regard to abortion, for example, than any pope. You didn't hear of any priests refusing communion to people who were in favor of legalized abortion before Bush. I don't think you can blame JP2 or Benedict for that. I think money is a factor, though (vouchers, faith based initiative, etc.).Danphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06368147966029831819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-58896114830206137722013-11-26T18:09:19.441-05:002013-11-26T18:09:19.441-05:00I question how much it matters if it's all jus...<i>I question how much it matters if it's all just words.</i><br /><br />Well, you and I can both agree on that -- I'm a lapsed Catholic for a reason. But insofar as these words do have an effect on the believers, I have a hard time believing Francis' substance and presentation aren't, together, doing more to project the idea that the New Catholic Church (tm) now cares more about poor people and less about social issues. We'll see.tonycpsuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02313249764836653051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-31571075148655792312013-11-26T18:02:00.988-05:002013-11-26T18:02:00.988-05:00Benedict also critiqued capitalism in an annual le...Benedict also critiqued capitalism in an <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/14/pope-economy-idUSL5E8NE3OV20121214" rel="nofollow">annual letter to world leaders.</a> Don't know where that ranks relative to an apostolic exhortation. Nor do I know where an encyclical letter ranks (see the John Paul quote in my post). <br /><br />I question how much it matters if it's all just words.Steve M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11963290427258439242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-24525042807335526892013-11-26T17:46:52.139-05:002013-11-26T17:46:52.139-05:00I'm only a lapsed Catholic, but my understandi...I'm only a lapsed Catholic, but my understanding is the apostolic exhortation has a higher rank on the totem pole of Papal pronouncements than part of a sermon at a New Year's Day mass.tonycpsuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02313249764836653051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-62499133628976375512013-11-26T17:44:02.055-05:002013-11-26T17:44:02.055-05:00So when Benedict puts this in a New Year's mes...So when Benedict puts this in a New Year's message and a pre-Christmas letter to world leaders it's a passing reference, but what Francis is doing now is more than that? What are we basing that conclusion on, apart from our desire to believe that Francis is awesome?Steve M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11963290427258439242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3856837.post-64102633489483860532013-11-26T17:33:31.579-05:002013-11-26T17:33:31.579-05:00Yglesias, of all people, points out the error in y...<a href="http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/11/26/evangelii_gauddium_pope_francis_vs_libertarian_economics.html" rel="nofollow">Yglesias</a>, of all people, points out the error in your logic:<br /><br /><i>I've heard a number of conservative Catholic commentators remark numerous times that it's silly for left-wing people to be highlighting Pope Francis' thoughts on economic policy because all this stuff has been Catholic doctrine for a long time. I think this misses the point. Obviously a new pope isn't going to make up a new religious doctrine from scratch. <b>But when you have a corpus of thinking and tradition that spans centuries, it makes a great deal of difference what you emphasize.</b></i><br /><br />It might just be Francis putting more marketing gloss on the church's discussion of income inequality and concern for the poor than Benedict did, but style matters, and emphasis matters, and for whatever reason, Benedict's message didn't project the way Francis' has. This can't be discounted just because we've found a few instances where Benedict covered some of the same ground.tonycpsuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02313249764836653051noreply@blogger.com